HD netflix streaming coming to xbox 360, Roku.......

[shelleyp]

Now CNET is reporting that when HD rolls out to the XBox, it will also roll out to the Roku box:

Netflix is calling this a "soft launch" since it is only rolling out such a small number of videos for HD streaming. The move mostly serves to stake a claim in the HD streaming market as opposed to being a full offering. Contrary to what others are reporting, HD streaming will be available on all streaming devices when it premieres with the New Xbox Experience. That means that the Roku, LG, and Samsung boxes will all be able to stream these HD movies, in addition to the Xbox 360. The PC and Mac based versions of Netflix, will not, however, be able to stream HD immediately. In addition, streaming in HD will require a large amount of bandwidth. Netflix estimates the requirement being in the 8-10 Gbps range.

It sure would be nice to have some consistency in answers. I don't know about anyone else, but that requirement seems more than a little excessive. And not what was discussed previously.

This whole thing has been badly managed.

[Klaus]

Well, that " high bandwidth" requirement sounds to me like 15 times rebuffering during a movie ,given the problems most of us have with the 4 dot quality right now.
We can wait till they start streaming commercials on the rebuffering screen

[shelleyp]

Well, that " high bandwidth" requirement sounds to me like 15 times rebuffering during a movie ,given the problems most of us have with the 4 dot quality right now.
We can wait till they start streaming commercials on the rebuffering screen

You're right, it does sound like the service is demanding some caching space, unless the author of the story really meant 8-10Mbps speeds.

If so, and the Roku boxes don't have this space, then it really isn't capable of streaming HD, not as Netflix would stream HD.

But you idea of commercials during rebuffering is funny. How about ones for Blockbuster? AppleTV?

[jtk]

8-10 Gbps? That has to be a typo...

[bitshifter1001]

8-10 Gbps? That has to be a typo...

Good question. Lets take a guess.

Current Bandwidth Requirements:
1 dot is 0.5Mbps
2 dots is 1.0Mbps
3 dots is 1.6Mbps
4 dots is 2.2Mbps

I don't know what the actual #'s will be for HD, but lets just say it triples.
Estimated Bandwidth Requirements:
1 dot is 1.5Mbps
2 dots is 3.0Mbps
3 dots is 4.8Mbps
4 dots is 6.6Mbps

Assumption 2: 10Gbps Netflix backend (upstream) bandwidth
10Gbps = 10,240 Mbps
That would allow about 1500 HD movies to be streamed simultaneously (based on my previous triple bandwidth assumption).

These numbers seem way off, so Im thinking it is definitely Mbps. That would probably mean my multiplier is a little low.

[spocko]

8-10 Gbps is clearly a typo, should have been Mbps. The cnet article has been corrected.

Note however that 8-10 Mbps is still a huge amount of bandwidth. Few people in the US have internet connections that can sustain that kind of throughput. Therefore I highly doubt the requirement will be that high. I read elsewhere that it might be 5Mbps, which would be more reasonable. Even that can be difficult to sustain for the duration of a movie. Keep in mind that the Roku box only has 64MB of buffer space (according to a post in the technical thread). At 5Mbps, that buffer could hold less than 2 minutes of video.

[dcxbox]

i wish roko would come out with an updated version or a deluxe version of the netflix player. say with 512MB to 1GB memory just for streaming cache

[Kermee]

So if you have a 250GB cap with Comcast on say a 16/2 plan...

... you'll hit your cap in about... 30 or so viewed movies. (Assuming that's the only traffic across your connection).

Cheers,
Kermee

[Kermee]

I have a sneaking suspicion the 1-4 dot Mbps range will be a lot tighter for HD content than the current SD.

I can't imagine a 1-dot (HD) being a lower bitrate than a 4-dot (SD). My guess is a 1-dot (HD) will be at a bitrate at or above 4-dot (SD) or else it should "throttle" the user back to the SD version of the content.

There's no gain giving the user over-compressed and blocky HD when a "better" looking SD copy would please the user more.

Of course... I could be entirely wrong here But does anyone understand my logic?

Cheers,
Kermee

[bitshifter1001]

So if you have a 250GB cap with Comcast on say a 16/2 plan...
... you'll hit your cap in about... 30 or so viewed movies. (Assuming that's the only traffic across your connection).

Hmmm. 250 GB sounds like a lot, but how much bandwidth do I really use? I have a Roku like many of you and I have a Xbox 360. As is noted in many places, the Roku DL's different quality based on your connection speed. I always get the best quality so I am using 2.2 Mb/s for everything I watch on that. I am currently watching Heros Season 3 and Jericho Season 1. Those episodes are around 43 min long. I also watch a ton of movies, probably around 25/month, and say the average movie is 90min. Lets do some math. Lets assume the article is close and streaming HD content requires 8Mbps (keeps math a little simpler).

SDTV Show (hour long show with no comercials)
2.2Mbps / 8 (bits/byte) = .275MB/s * 60sec = 16.5MB/min * 43min = 709.5 MB/episode

SD Movie (average length movie)
2.2Mbps / 8 (bits/byte) = .275MB/s * 60sec = 16.5MB/min * 90min =~ 1.5 GB/movie

HDTV Show (hour long show with no comercials)
8 Mbps / 8 (bits/byte) = 1MB/s * 60sec = 60MB/min * 43 min = 2580 MB / 1024 MB/GB =~ 2.52GB/episode

HD Movie (average length movie)
8 Mbps / 8 (bits/byte) = 1MB/s * 60sec = 60MB/min * 90 min = 5400 MB / 1024 MB/GB =~ 5.27GB/movie

So if I watch 15 TV Shows, 15 HDTV Shows, 10 Movies and 15 HD Movies......
709.5 MB * 15 = 10642.5 MB =~ 10.4 GB
2.52 GB * 15 = 25.2 GB
1.5 GB * 10 = 15 GB
5.27 GB * 15 =~ 79 GB

Total Roku bandwidth/month =~ 129.6 GB

As for the 360, I just DL’ed Tiger Woods and Battlefield Bad Company a few weeks ago. Both those demos were 1GB+. I play COD4 online about 3 times a week, and I have no idea how much traffic that uses per min. I bet the bandwidth usage goes up if you are host in a game as well.

Ok, let say that XBox Live uses around 10MB/h down and 6 MB/h up. (http://www.xbox360forum.com/forum/digital-home/69565-bandwidth-needs.html) And if you host in Halo 3 or CoD 4 lets just say it doubles.

If I do around 10-15 hours of gaming / month
10 hours of not hosting * 16MB/h (10 + 6 down/up) = 160 MB
5 hours of hosting * 32MB/h = 160 MB
5 full game demos =~ 5.5 GB
5 arcade demos (500MB each) = 2.5GB
1 HD video rental = 5 GB

Total XBox Live Bandwidth per month: ~13 GB (just under)

Lets add in web browsing, ubuntu updates and possible torrents
Web = 500 MB
Updates = 1 GB
Torrents (8 * 700MB) =~ 6 GB down / 1 GB up = 7 GB

Total other bandwidth: 8.5 GB

Summing all bandwidth usage: 129.6 +13 + 8.5 = 151.1 GB

All in all, it looks like you really have to abuse your network connection with massive amounts of torrents while you are sleeping and such to go over the 250GB cap. My math may be wrong somewhere in there too. I don’t share my connection with anyone but my girlfriend and she is only browses the web. These numbers would obviously go up if you have more people using your connection.

Disclaimers: I rounded bandwidth usage up in most places just to be safe. Also, I don’t really know the actual bandwidth requirements of XBox Live. Even if XBox Live traffic is double than what I calculated you would still be way under this cap.

[shelleyp]

So if you have a 250GB cap with Comcast on say a 16/2 plan...
... you'll hit your cap in about... 30 or so viewed movies. (Assuming that's the only traffic across your connection).

[...]

Summing all bandwidth usage: 129.6 +13 + 8.5 = 151.1 GB

All in all, it looks like you really have to abuse your network connection with massive amounts of torrents while you are sleeping and such to go over the 250GB cap. My math may be wrong somewhere in there too. I don’t share my connection with anyone but my girlfriend and she is only browses the web. These numbers would obviously go up if you have more people using your connection.

Disclaimers: I rounded bandwidth usage up in most places just to be safe. Also, I don’t really know the actual bandwidth requirements of XBox Live. Even if XBox Live traffic is double than what I calculated you would still be way under this cap.

The mistake people make when they start adding up the bandwidth costs, is assume only one person will be viewing internet-based material at a time. Yet in most households, it's not unusual to have two, even three TVs going. You allude to that, but I don't think you're thinking beyond being a single person, with single person needs.

All it would take, is two boxes (XBox, Roku, computer, whatever), two people, two different rooms, for broadband caps to be busted. Is this really "hoggy"? Or pretty standard in a lot of American families and households?

[bitshifter1001]

The mistake people make when they start adding up the bandwidth costs, is assume only one person will be viewing internet-based material at a time. Yet in most households, it's not unusual to have two, even three TVs going. You allude to that, but I don't think you're thinking beyond being a single person, with single person needs.

All it would take, is two boxes (XBox, Roku, computer, whatever), two people, two different rooms, for broadband caps to be busted. Is this really "hoggy"? Or pretty standard in a lot of American families and households?

Very good point. It does change when you start adding more people into the mix. The first issue you would run into would be bandwidth limitations. If your connection is 16/2 then you would probably have a hard time sustaining two simultaneous HD streams, based on the previous assumption that an HD stream requires 8Mbps. No chance for 3 at a time with those numbers.

The second issue is the cap. Now my numbers were definitely on the high side. Would everyone watch 15 HDTV show and 15 HD movies per month? All through the Roku? Im not saying that its not possible, but probably unlikely. IM(very)HO the 250 GB cap will be an issue in the future but not for a few years. While I love my Roku all of this depends on the new content that Netflix can provide.

[shelleyp]

While I love my Roku all of this depends on the new content that Netflix can provide.

Very true. And whether and when we get HD content. BTW rumors have it that we are getting some HD content now, specifically pointing out Heroes. I noticed it does seem to be higher quality than many other shows, but it doesn't seem to be the HD quality I get from my Apple TV.

Someday we'll know what's what, when either Netflix or Roku deign to respond to the questions and concerns.

[wideasleep1]

Someday we'll know what's what, when either Netflix or Roku deign to respond to the questions and concerns.

I'd prefer they work to implement HD...I could care less about their responses to internet innuendo, speculation, and outright conspiracy theories.

[shelleyp]

Someday we'll know what's what, when either Netflix or Roku deign to respond to the questions and concerns.

I'd prefer they work to implement HD...I could care less about their responses to internet innuendo, speculation, and outright conspiracy theories.

I'm assuming that the company has people who do something other than code. Perhaps company managers, or PR, or even community outreach people. Since there's enough press on this issue, asking for clarification is both fair and reasonable. I'm not such a fangirl that I'm going to play dutifully quiet customer.

Since Roku has indirectly been responding to some of the people writing on this issue, I don't think its unreasonable to ask them to give us some definitive answers -- or at least clarifications -- in this forum, created as a place for Roku company employees and customers to interact.